Werner Benz – MD Jansen

Good morning.

I attach a picture of your product in application at Cloud 8.

Disappointingly I noticed dimpling at approximately 300 centres on panels. It appears that this feature occurs as part of the manufacturing process but leaves this untidy result which is clearly visible.

Should I reasonably expect this finish with your products?

I look forward to hearing from you.

13 January 2003 17:56
email to

Werner Benz MD Jansen

Mr Benz,

I continue to look forward to a response to the question posed in my email of yesterday.


Sincerely.

Tom Perry

14 January 2003 17:56
email to

Werner Benz MD Jansen

I continue to look forward to a response to my question.


Tom Perry

Tuesday, January 14, 2003 3:59 PM
? Dear Tom
> We refer to your e-mail of yesterday sent to Werner Benz. We are sorry to
hear you are disapointed with our products. Unfortunately it is not possible
to analyse the reasons of dimples you mentioned based on the received
picture.
>
> Out of our earlier conversations I know you used James Gibbons in this
job. We would be interested to know if you discussed this matter with them
already and what their opinion is. - After receipt of your information we
will contact James Gibbons to inform ourself about the fabrication and which
surface treatment process has been used etc.. Depending on their comments
and if required we would trace back the whole material supply to check the
relevant production badge on quality. (eventually we still have products of
the same badge in stock or we will check them based on our production
records)
>
> Due to a business trip (Fair Bau Munich) we will not be in from Wednesday
noon till Saturday this week - however we contact James Gibbons asap after
receipt of your information and will come back to you.
>
> We are looking forward to your reply and want to thank you for your
understanding.
>
> Best regards
> Jansen Ltd
> Urs Riedi
> www.jansen.com
>

14 January 2003 16:16

May I suggest you contact JG immediately. They have said it occurs in
manufacturing. There is no reason for you to delay and I am unconvinced by
this off the cuff remark. Having had a delayed response from your company I
have now featured this "manufacturing occurrence" on the web. Steve Manley
is looking into matters also unsure of the remark that was made to me.

Either this occurs in manufacturing or it does not. If it does say so and
provide me with evidence. If it does not just say so. Either it does or it
does not - and if you don't know then we are in trouble.

Tom

14 January 2003 15:59

Dear Tom
We refer to your e-mail of yesterday sent to Werner Benz. We are sorry to hear you are disapointed with our products. Unfortunately it is not possible to analyse the reasons of dimples you mentioned based on the received picture.

Out of our earlier conversations I know you used James Gibbons in this job. We would be interested to know if you discussed this matter with them already and what their opinion is. - After receipt of your information we will contact James Gibbons to inform ourself about the fabrication and which surface treatment process has been used etc.. Depending on their comments and if required we would trace back the whole material supply to check the relevant production badge on quality. (eventually we still have products of the same badge in stock or we will check them based on our production records)

Due to a business trip (Fair Bau Munich) we will not be in from Wednesday noon till Saturday this week - however we contact James Gibbons asap after receipt of your information and will come back to you.

We are looking forward to your reply and want to thank you for your understanding.

Best regards

Jansen Ltd
Urs Riedi
www.jansen.com

15 January 2003 10:53

For info see below.

This is an extraordinary response by the licensor company - "what does the
fabricator say?"

Who cares what the fabricator says. Is this how Jansen expects its product
to be presented in finished form by anyone including Jansen or a licensee.
I've now put pictures on my website of the dimpled door. This will be
followed shortly by the dimpled panels and the sleeving of the profile that
we have had to endure. Why is there no limit to the window size mentioned in
your sales material. This sleeving came as a surprise to my architect and
me. The finish is less than perfect as a result.

My website by the way gets 120k hits a month and rising exponentially.

I am asking a straightforward question/questions which have yet to be
answered.

I look forward to your response as Mr Reidi seems unlikely to respond as he
is away. Given we are in the 20th Century and communications inc Blackberry
are so readily available I see no reason for delay in response.

If I fail to get an answer to these simple questions today by 3pm I will be
voluble on the subjects.

Tom Perry

From: "Benz Werner" <werner.benz@jansen.com>
To: "'Tom Perry'" <sottovoce@btinternet.com>
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 3:25 PM
Subject: AW: Dimpling in frames and panels

Dear Mr. Perry

First I apologize for the delay in answering your e-mails dd 13th and 15th January 2003. Of course, I was informed about your first e-mail but I put my priorities on the Munich fair which I attended until Friday, 17th.

Here my answers:

To point 1: Dimpling in frames and panels
Due to the fact that our profiles are covered by a metal sheet, this has nothing to do with the quality and the fabrication of our profiles. If you are not satisfied with the quality of the cladding and/or the surface treatment, you have to contact the relevant supplier.

To point 2: limit to the window size
The maximum size and weight for JANISOL door leaves is clearly stated in our catalogues. The minimum size is given by the geometrie of the leave (if it is too small, you can not open it anymore; the exact size depends on the hinge resp. on the centre of rotation of the hinge). For windows the maximum and the minium size are given by the availability of the hardware. This again is clearly stated in our catalogues.

With best regards
JANSEN LTD.
Werner Benz

20 January 2003 17:22

Mr Benz,

You have missed the point twice.

1. I am asking you if the dimpling in all panels is something one might expect. You sell profiles in the doors which are covered in sheet. Is the manufacture of the profile such that when they are covered in steel the sheet is prone to dimpling as a result of (presumably) welding. Is this something fabricators you are aware of come across? If not why not.
2. Window frames on my site are being sleeved. They are fixed windows - not openers. What is the largest fixed window that can be made - and what causes limitations - factory size, painting (powder coating) glass weight - or no reason at all. I cannot be supplied with more than a 3.8 m linear length without sleeves being fitted to the frames. Does sleeving compromise the performance.

Tom Perry

From: Benz Werner
To: Tom Perry
Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 7:30 AM
Dear Mr. Perry
You are right. The metal sheet is prone to dimpling as a result of the heat which is brought in by welding. The welding aereas have to be grinded and polished what may cause a different appearance after surface treatment.

The maximum size of fixed windows without junctions (sleeves) is 6 linear metres. This is the random length which we supply to our customers. However, there are other limitations, such as:
- statics
- glazing (max. size of glass panes)
- surface treatment (e.g. oven for powder coating)
- fabrication, transport and handling (installation on site)
Not knowing what type of junction (sleeve) the fabricator used, we can not answer your question. However, we do not expect a measurable influence of the junction on the performance (insulation) with regard to the whole size of the element.
With best regards
JANSEN LTD.
Werner Benz

22 January 2003 08:12

Mr Benz,

Thank you for your response.

"You are right. The metal sheet is prone to dimpling as a result of the heat which is brought in by welding. The welding areas have to be grinded and polished what may cause a different appearance after surface treatment."

Please would you let me know where in your technical information - or any corporate collateral you produce for architects or clients, where it states using Jansen profiles that metal doors can be prone to dimpling?

Could you also advise where in the same collateral in mentions sleeving. My architect David Grindley fully expected these to be solid welded frames.

Tom Perry
www.cloud8.org.uk

----- Original Message -----
From: Benz Werner
To: 'Tom Perry'
Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 12:00 PM
Subject: AW: Dimpling in frames and panels
Dear Mr. Perry
It seems we get a never ending story. So I suggest, you procure a neutral expert opinion. Either a UK based manufacturer of steel plates (e.g. CORUS) or the RIBA (Royal Institute of British Architects) may name you experts in this field.

With best regards
Werner Benz

----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Tom Perry [mailto:sottovoce@btinternet.com]
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 22. Januar 2003 14:12
An: Benz Werner
Betreff: Re: Dimpling in frames and panels
No - its a simple question - where in your corporate collateral does it say this (dimpling) might occur?
[Benz Werner]
This is common knowledge for everybody dealing with steel and state of engineering. We recommend in our catalogue wet lacquering preceded by priming.
Could you also advise where in the same collateral in mentions sleeving. My architect David Grindley fully expected these to be solid welded frames.
[Benz Werner]
Again; it is common knowledge, that it is impossible to build endless frames. I gave you some ideas of limitation. In addition to that, you have to allow any frame somehow to expand (due to different temperatures). We show different possibilities in our catalogues.
This has nothing to do with expert witness - it is to do with your sales and technical literature.
If we can expect this as you seem to suggest in your email - where is it in your literature. Where in your literature does it mention sleeving?
Simple questions - which I am asking of you.


Tom Perry

22 January 2003 13:11
To Benz Werner

No - its a simple question - where in your corporate collateral does it say this (dimpling) might occur?

Could you also advise where in the same collateral in mentions sleeving. My architect David Grindley fully expected these to be solid welded frames.

This has nothing to do with expert witness - it is to do with your sales and technical literature.

If we can expect this as you seem to suggest in your email - where is it in your literature. Where in your literature does it mention sleeving?

Simple questions - which I am asking of you.


Tom Perry
www.cloud8.org.uk

23 January 2003 16:08
Benz Werner

Would you please reply to the simple questions below.(email; of the 22 Jan 03)

----- Original Message -----
From: Benz Werner
To: 'Tom Perry'
Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 10:46 AM
Subject: AW: Dimpling in frames and panels
Dear Mr. Perry
On your questions see remarks below.
Unfortunately, I can not expect, that your are satisfied with this. Therefore I once again suggest, that you get a neutral expert opinion. If you want do get a more detailed information from JANSEN, we can only do so, if you send us the complete description and drawings of the architect and the fabricator.
Best regards
Werner Benz

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Tom Perry [mailto:sottovoce@btinternet.com]
Gesendet: Freitag, 24. Januar 2003 11:57
An: Benz Werner
Betreff: Re: Dimpling in frames and panels

So are you confirming that dimpling is inevitable as a result of welding frames to sheet metal? Yes / No will suffice.
Please do not assume I am happy or unhappy - its a question.
Regarding "endless frames" I would not expect endless frames and there are bound to be limitations for differing reasons but my architect cannot see the reasoning given the sizes of glass we are using - and sees no mention of it in any technical literature.
Tom Perry

----- Original Message -----
From: Benz Werner
To: 'Tom Perry'
Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 1:43 PM
Subject: AW: Dimpling in frames and panels

Dear Mr. Perry
Yes,
So are you confirming that dimpling is inevitable as a result of welding frames to sheet metal? Yes / No will suffice.
Point 2 you definitely have to discuss with the supplier of the frame. Without knowing the circumstances (glass sizes, surface treatment, installing on site) we can not judge what is right or wrong. It really depends on the description and the agreements between yourself, the architect and the fabricator.

Best regards
Werner Benz

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Tom Perry [mailto:sottovoce@btinternet.com]
Gesendet: Freitag, 24. Januar 2003 15:00
An: Benz Werner
Betreff: Re: Dimpling in frames and panels
I don't wish to appear pedantic but I just wish to clarify your answer as everything came out in blue this end.
Dimpling is inevitable as a result of welding Jansen frames to sheet metal? It is unavoidable.
Tom Perry
www.cloud8.org.uk

Original Message -----
From: Benz Werner
To: 'Tom Perry'
Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 2:26 PM
Subject: AW: Dimpling in frames and panels
Yes
Dimpling is unavoidable if you weld metal sheet on Jansen profiles. It is the same when you weld metal sheet on metal sheet or metal sheet on steel tubes.
With best regards.
Werner Benz

29 January 2003 06:23

To Benz Werner
Just one more point Mr Benz,

Please could you send me the extract from your brochure and your technical manual where it explains that dimpling (or whatever is the technical term for the occurrence is) is unavoidable when combining your frames to sheet metal.


Thank you,


Tom Perry

At this point Mr Benz retired from the scene to be replaced by Mr Urs Reidi.

----- Original Message -----
From: Riedi Urs
To: 'sottovoce@btinternet.com'
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 2:17 PM
Subject: WG: Dimpling in frames and panels
Please find attached the relevant page out of our technical catalogue T-01. Hope to be of assistance with this information.
Jansen Ltd
Urs Riedi

The copy from the Technical Manual is attached - you decide. As an end user I don’t get to see this anyway - so it is a pointless inclusion to send me. At this stage I am still awaiting sight of sales collateral where it states the lengths before sleeving needs to occur - and that dimples are unavoidable in the manufacture of doors and panels.

Von: Tom Perry[SMTP:SOTTOVOCE@BTINTERNET.COM]
Gesendet: Montag, 3. Februar 2003 10:00:43
An: Riedi Urs
Betreff: Re: Dimpling in frames and panels

What do you suggest to your licencees about the removal of dimpling from panels. I would have thought P60 filler and sanding prior to painting. In your fabricators manual what suggestions do you make?
Tom Perry
www.cloud8.org.uk

03 February 2003 12:38
Dear Mr. Parry

There are different ways of mending dimpling in frames and panels. One of the best procedure, which is most recommended by Jansen, is to have the reperation done by a car plumber which has the expertise to apply the putty compound onto the surface.
An other possibility would be to use one of the putty filler which are available from nearly any coating dealers in Europe. The company which is recommended by Jansen is Dupli-Color in Germany (see attached homepage).
Please note, that not all putty compound are heat resistant for powder coating the specification of each product must therefore be taken in consideration.

I hope that I have been of assistance to you with this information.
Best regards
Stefan Barenbrügge

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Tom Perry [mailto:sottovoce@btinternet.com]
Gesendet: Sonntag, 16. Februar 2003 18:25
An: Riedi Urs
Betreff: Re: Dimpling in frames and panels
Thank you for this - I assume plug welds (as a description) are the same as the effect of dimpling?Does it go on the mention in the technical manual that the use of car filler is recommended to get a smooth finish which Stefan Barenbrugge recently advised was the answer to the occurrence?
Are either of these issues mentioned in your point of sale literature that clients are dependant on to make a decision about your product? If to where - and please send pdf of the location and details of which brochure.
Thank you.
Tom Perry

Original Message -----
From: Riedi Urs
To: 'Tom Perry'
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 4:19 PM
Subject: AW: Dimpling in frames and panels
Dear Tom
I would like to refer yourselve to my e-mail dated 29th of January - the attachment answers your question as far as I understand it. To find an end in this matter I suggest, you procure a neutral expert opinion. Either a UK based manufacturer of steel plates or RIBA - as earlier informed by Mr Werner Benz.
Best regards
Jansen Ltd
Urs Riedi

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Tom Perry [mailto:sottovoce@btinternet.com]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 18. Februar 2003 10:00
An: Riedi Urs
Betreff: Re: Dimpling in frames and panels
Urs,
From your response I am therefore understand that there is no information in client point of sale literature on dimpling, and that nothing is covered in your technical brochures on using fillers to smooth the dimples that are inevitably created (sic) as a result of welding.
Thank you for your response.
Tom Perry
www.cloud8.org.uk

----- Original Message -----
From: Riedi Urs
To: 'Tom Perry'
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2003 4:19 PM
Subject: AW: Dimpling in frames and panels

Dear Tom
I would like to refer yourselve to my e-mail dated 29th of January - the attachment answers your question as far as I understand it. To find an end in this matter I suggest, you procure a neutral expert opinion. Either a UK based manufacturer of steel plates or RIBA - as earlier informed by Mr Werner Benz.
Best regards
Jansen Ltd
Urs Riedi

----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Tom Perry [mailto:sottovoce@btinternet.com]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 18. Februar 2003 10:00
An: Riedi Urs
Betreff: Re: Dimpling in frames and panels
Urs,
From your response I am therefore understand that there is no information in client point of sale literature on dimpling, and that nothing is covered in your technical brochures on using fillers to smooth the dimples that are inevitably created (sic) as a result of welding.
Thank you for your response.
Tom Perry
www.cloud8.org.uk

----- Original Message -----
From: Riedi Urs
To: 'Tom Perry'
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 10:49 AM
Subject: AW: Dimpling in frames and panels

Dear Tom
Sorry Tom, you must have missunderstood my e-mail. Our technical documention which I sent you the 29th of January shows our recommendation.
I suppose you agree that we do not come to an end in this matter when you are sending questions or remarks that we try to answer. We suggest again you procure a neutral expert in the UK as written before.
Thanks for your understanding.
Best regards
Jansen AG
Urs Riedi


-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Tom Perry [mailto:sottovoce@btinternet.com]
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 19. Februar 2003 14:01
An: Riedi Urs
Betreff: Re: Dimpling in frames and panels
I accept that you have sent me copy of the technical manual Urs,
But technical documentation is not the documentation a client sees - so the information is not included in client information.
I don't need independent advice - I am asking a simple question of your company.
In any point of sale literature (not technical documentation which by its name is not point of sale literature) is there any mention of dimpling which is an inevitable side effect of the manufacture of steel panels or doors? In the same documentation is there information about how to resolve this occurrence?
The answer is no to both questions apparently - else I guess you would have sent me the copy.
Tom Perry
www.cloud8.org.uk

----- Original Message -----
From: Riedi Urs
To: 'Tom Perry'
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 1:13 PM
Subject: AW: Dimpling in frames and panels

Dear Tom
Your e-mail below as discussed by phone today between Steve Barenbrügge and me.
Regards
Urs

Original Message -----
From: Tom Perry
To: Riedi Urs
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2003 3:19 PM
Subject: Re: Dimpling in frames and panels

To which you did not give an answer to.

In any point of sale literature (not technical documentation which by its name is not point of sale literature) is there any mention of dimpling which is an inevitable side effect of the manufacture of steel panels or doors? In the same documentation is there information about how to resolve this occurrence?

Additionally no answer was received from Stefan on the matter of dimpling. If you release product into the marketplace assuming that the fabricator will know the answers you will have to put up with the inevitably adverse comment that will occur as a result of paying clients believing they have been mislead by your corporate collateral which mentions nothing about dimpling - a question that your technical department does not wish to answer.

One therefore has to look at the collateral and suggest that it is knowingly misleading.

If as it is being suggested I have to put up with the dimpling - you will not be the only ones that hear about it - I will naturally make a point of letting many know.

By the way - The film production company are continuing to film here for Series 4 of the programme and I attach an article recently featured in DB the architects newspaper. The website gets 70 - 100 hits a month and is heavily populated by architects.


Sincerely


Tom Perry
www.cloud8.org.uk

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Tom Perry [mailto:sottovoce@btinternet.com]
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 27. Februar 2003 11:12
An: Urs Riedi
Cc: David Grindley; Benz Werner; JonathanPirrie@jamesgibbons.co.uk; Philip Ellis
Betreff: Fw: Dimpling in frames and panels
Urs,
Stephan says there is a solution to the dimpling issue when using Zinc powder coating - but cannot advise what this is, as it is the responsibility of the fabricator to find the solution.
The fabricator says there is no solution to the dimples because we are using zinc powder coating.
Now if you put a product into the market place knowing solutions to potential issues that arise in manufacturing and then state it is the responsibility of the manufacturer to discover the solution without advising the manufacturer of your experience (that of the OEM who has a vested interest in ensuring their product is fabricated to a benchmark standard, thus developing the brand ) I would respectfully suggest that you are going to cause the market to get very irritated with your company.
I have now reached this position.
Your firm is being intransigent about sharing information with James Gibbons on the possible solution to the issues I have at Cloud 8.
James Gibbons wishes to resolve the issue but says it can't. You are disinclined to advise them how to resolve the matter.
I as the client am spending £166k on glazing systems - and am not seriously ticked off that I chose your frames as a result of having been denied all the information I should have been given to make an informed decision.
Expect significant publicity on this issue.
Tom Perry

----- Original Message -----
From: Riedi Urs
To: 'Tom Perry'
Cc: Barenbrügge Stefan ; Garnell Alan (E-Mail) ; 'stevemanley@jgw.co.uk'
Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 9:09 AM
Subject: AW: Dimpling in frames and panels

Dear Tom
I know you are aware that what you are writing is not true due to the following reasons:

1. Welding is the competence of each metalworker - we have compared to metalworkers less experience however we share with all our metalworkers all our experiences.

2. There are many ways and many different products to do the surface treatment. As well in this field companies with high competences are in the market - we share as well our experiences with all our customers

3. Jansen Ltd takes very much care about the right fabrication and installation of our products. We have a wide range of technical documentation, run about 80 seminars for customer throughout each year and can offer within our representatives technical support in and for each market.

Best regards
Jansen Ltd
Urs Riedi

From Tom Perry
03 March 2003 12:28

To Urs Reidi

CC David Grindley;Jonathan Pirrie,David Grindley; Benz Werner

see comments below in black.


Tom Perry
www.cloud8.org.uk

----- Original Message -----
From: Riedi Urs
To: 'Tom Perry'
Cc: Barenbrügge Stefan ; Garnell Alan (E-Mail) ; 'stevemanley@jgw.co.uk'
Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 9:09 AM
Subject: AW: Dimpling in frames and panels

Dear Tom
I know you are aware that what you are writing is not true due to the following reasons:
1. Welding is the competence of each metalworker - we have compared to metalworkers less experience however we share with all our metalworkers all our experiences. not so unfortunately.jgsg cannot get an answer to the problem from Stephan - he knows a solution but is disinclined to make suggestions.You know perfectly well this is the case. I was told by Stephan it is for the fabricator to resolve - you now appear to be contradicting this position - but when I spoke to you last week in an attempt to discover the dimple solution - you gave pretty much the same response - its for the fabricator.
You are attempting to argue in two directions - I intend to look at Trade Descriptrions in relation to your products - I think Jansens selling of them is misleading and as a result we were not given all the information we should have been before we made a decision.
2. There are many ways and many different products to do the surface treatment. As well in this field companies with high competences are in the market - we share as well our experiences with all our customers again this is stating the opposite of what Jansen are doing, as I have personally experienced.
3. Jansen Ltd takes very much care about the right fabrication and installation of our products. We have a wide range of technical documentation, run about 80 seminars for customer throughout each year and can offer within our representatives technical support in and for each market. How many conferences you have is irrelevant. If you do not answer key questions they are pointless. Q - what is the solution to dimples - Jansen fail to answer. Q dimples are an inevitable result of manufacture (sic) where does it state this in the sales collateral? Jansen fails to answer. Q where does it state in sales collateral the limit on length of frame and the necessity for sleeving? Jansen fails to answer.
You have had plenty of opportunity to respond to these points and have failed to respond to a single question.
I will be pursuing all these points elsewhere as I feel your company knowingly missleads end users.
My experience with your firm could only be improved upon. My architect a lecturer in one of Britains leading architectural schools remains shocked at the Jansen situation and will no doubt at some future date express same to colleagues.
A sequel to the programme that is being transmitted on the 12th commences filming this Thursday for transmission next year.

Best regards
Jansen Ltd
Urs Riedi

Since this last email – nothing has been heard from this Swiss concern. From my standpoint they know they are wrong but try to take cover behind fabricators despite licensing their product to them and holding 80 gripping conferences a year to advise everyone who attends of everything in the world of Jansen.
Their MD Mr Werner Benz refuses to respond to the key questions that have been posed in my correspondence and their UK distributors are not aiding anyone. If you want to buy from the UK Distributor you are interviewed before the Order taking manager Mr Garnell will speak to you – yes he is that important. The UK Distributor is called Hub le Bas – a subsidiary of the cash strapped Tyco whose ex chief executive will be in the US courts soon for alleged misappropriation of company funds.
Trade Descriptions – here I come.

Jansen Profiles with non-optional dimples

We have the solutions but refuse to tell you them as the problem which is an inevitable part of production is the responsibility of the fabricator.